[Boss 448]

Later on I seen him again and that thing was chugging right along. I couldn't believe how much black smoke it put out.

Interesting..... I would like to have seen that.

JN

 

[Boss 448]

Jimmy,

That is a project I am very interested in seeing come together. I have been looking at those V-twin diesels and if they run good I think they will make great power plants for a lot of GT's.

One thing I noticed on some of their websites is the fact that the engines are not EPA approved for use in this country. I wonder if ag and tractor applications are exempt to those regs? Where did you purchase your engine and what do you have invested total (price, shipping, were there duties, etc)?

Good luck with your project!

JN

 

[Boss 448]

Jimmy,

That's very interesting. I knew that these engines could be purchased direct but until now did not know of anyone that has done it. I was concerned that it would get hit by heavy duties and the EPA issue. At the price you paid I have to think these engines represent a great deal.

I am seriously considering doing something similar but putting it in a Case/Ingersoll 448. Any and all pictures and descriptions you might provide will be very helpful. I am really looking forward to following your project!

JN

 

[Boss 448]

Skyrydr2,

The noise factor is an interesting point that I have not seen compared anywhere. What information are you basing your statement on? Have you heard the V-twins run yourself or are you working off of someone else's comments? Is the increased noise due to exhaust, fan noise, or the typical mechanical 'knocking' sound inherent with diesel engines?

I can see where fan noise could be a factor since the air cooling the engine must be directed all around the engine instead of through a concentrated radiator. I can also understand that the diesel knock could be more pronounced in an air cooled engine since it is not surrounded by a water jacket. Exhaust would be the least of my worries since a louder system could be redesigned to be quieter. I understand that in the end noise would be the collective sum of all three sources, but I wonder how much greater it really is?

I can also say that the air cooled Onan powerplant in my Ingersoll 448 is no 'whisper quiet' engine either. How much louder would the diesel engine be than what I have now? Unless the noise level was significantly greater than some of the engines being replaced, I still think the v-twin diesel could be a good candidate for repowers.

The water-cooled diesel engines are nice but there is a lot more to consider when transplanting one such as the radiator and plumbing, the much larger flywheel and bell housing design, no power take-off on the front of the engine, etc.

In the end I realize that a lot of the differences between water and air cooled engines is subjective and one would almost have to perform direct comparisons (impossible for most of us to do) to have concrete answers. That said, the more information we can gather from all sources the better informed we can be. For that reason I am really interested in you elaborating on your previous post. I'm not doubting anything you said, I'm simply trying to gather more information on the subject.

Thanks for your input and for raising a potential issue that I had not considered or seen addressed by anyone else here previously.

JN

 

[Boss 448]

You can't go wrong with a good used Kubota that's for sure. The problem is finding one that dosen't need a rebuild.

In general I would agree with that statement. That said, it can be difficult to verify the condition of a used engine (of any make or model) without seeing and hearing it run, and even then just 'bench' running it may not divulge some problems that might show up later after an outlay of money and many hours doing the conversion.

I think that there is something else interesting if you peruse the various conversion projects here. In general I would say that the level of complexity and required fab skills and equipment rises substantially for those projects involving water cooled power plants. Frankly, I am in awe of some of the conversions here and I seriously doubt that I will ever possess the same levels of knowledge, skill, and resources that people like Daniel and some of the other posters exhibit in their projects. :worshippy1:

The fact is it appears that in most cases re-powering with an air cooled engine would be simpler than using a water cooled engine. I know there will be those that disagree with that statement both in general and in reference to specific tractor / engine combinations, but I really believe that in most cases the average member of this forum would be better off going air cooled.

In both cases (air or water cooled) I don't think you can beat diesel power for a serious GT. I am continuing to closely follow these threads to learn as much as I can in anticipation for when the time is right for me to attempt a diesel re-power of my own.

JN

 

[Boss 448]

Brian,

Yes, cold starting is definitely a consideration. Do these v-twin diesels have standard (or optional) glow plugs? If not can anyone tell me if it is practical (or even possible) to install glow plugs on one of these engines?

I think that glow plugs and/or block heaters are about the only options for improving cold starting diesels. There is no choke on a diesel and I don't think a fuel enrichment circuit would help. One thing I would not attempt is using starting fluid since I have read many cautions about the damage it can do to a diesel engine.

Personally, I think that the diesel 'rattle' is kind of neat, but like anything I'm sure it could be annoying in extreme. The extra sound deadening of the water jacket on a water-cooled diesel engine would certainly reduce the rattle - apparently by a significant amount. I'm not sure that there is any practical way to reduce the diesel rattle - it is what it is. I believe that most of the noise on my 448 Ingersoll is from the fan noise and exhaust noise. Since I am sure those are present on the diesel also, then the diesel rattle would in fact be additive to the noise level overall. Now I am wondering how much more annoying the sound factor will be. The noise level is subjective so I will be very interested to learn what Jimmy thinks when his project is done.

JN

 

[Boss 448]

there is a good case for dropping serious money on a repower for an otherwise solid and servicable machine

I agree 100%. Regarding the cold start issue can anyone tell me whether the glow plug and / or intake pre-heater is strictly designed to heat incoming air or does it also assist in atomizing the fuel?

JN

 

[Boss 448]

I suppose the reported difficulty to meter fuel (and thus engine speed) is more or less inherent to smaller engines for several reasons. First, the smaller size of the metering linkage would make incremental and fine adjustments less precise than their larger counterparts on larger engines. Second, the lower manufacturing costs required for smaller engines probably affect how precise the injector pumps and governor assemblies are designed, built and assembled.

I wonder if modifying the linkages for the governor and throttle would help. I know, it's not technically a throttle function, but throttle is the common term used for everything from gas and diesel engines and even the speed control on electric motors - I refer to the 'go' pedal on my electric golf cart as the throttle, too.

and you basically take away its ability to govern unless it is designed for it

If I understand this statement you are saying that the speed control is direct and there is no governing device between the control cable and the injector, is that correct? I would think that some type of governing feature would almost be a necessity - especially if you are doing something like plowing, tilling, etc. Without some governing feature it would seem that you would be spending your entire day just moving the throttle (fuel control) up and down.

The discussion of these various details regarding the diesel power plants is very interesting and informative. While it does not dampen my interest in transplanting a diesel engine into a GT it does provide a good idea of the things that need to be addressed and overcome.

Thanks guys!

JN

 

[Boss 448]

Please correct my thinking if I am wrong about this. It would seem that engines with fixed RPM would only be suitable for tractors equipped with a hydrostatic or hydraulic drive. Especially in the case of an Ingersoll / Case tractor where the ground travel speed and hydraulic PTO functions are all controlled by the diversion of constantly circulating hydraulic fluid to the hydraulic travel motor or hydraulic cylinders. This would mean that the engine would constantly run in the optimum RPM range.

Do diesel engines configured to operate at a fixed RPM (3,600 RPM for example) have an idle circuit that would at least let the operator idle the engine down?

JN

 

[Boss 448]

This is good and useful stuff. I'm not getting turned off to diesel power at all. That said, all of this information will allow myself and others to anticipate and deal with potential issues. That is exactly what makes forums like this so great!

JN

 

[Boss 448]

Very nice! Another example of excellent creativity and craftsmanship! :worshippy1:

JN

 

[Boss 448]

Rodents had chewed the wiring up and the gentleman didn't want to deal with it.

Gotta love those Mickey Mouse discounts, eh? :bigrofl:

JN

BTW - nice conversion Chris!

 

[Boss 448]

Chris,

Wow, I never realized there was a difference in the cooling systems on these little water cooled engines. I have always just assumed they were all circulated by a pump. That's another little golden nugget of information to remember if one goes the water cooled engine route.

Would the reduction in radiator size be enough to perhaps justify installing a cooling water pump? Does the thermal siphon approach reduce your margin of cooling range between operational and overheating conditions? Does the cooling system on your engine incorporate a thermostat to prevent over-cooling in winter conditions?

JN

 

[Boss 448]

The latest Microsoft Internet Explorer (version 9.x) has created a rash of issues with our websites and web applications here at work. Both Chrome and Firefox appear far more stable in their latest versions.

While the latest version of Internet Explorer is supposed to have improved security features the Chrome and Firefox are generally viewed as more secure browsers overall.

JN

 

[Boss 448]

I plan to do another one this winter for my father.

Hello son. This is your long lost father here.... :bigrofl:

Actually, that sounds like the ultimate father's day present. Your dad is a lucky fellow!

JN

 

[Boss 448]

Jimmy,

Any progress on working with your V-twin diesel engine? I just acquired a single cylinder 10 HP air cooled China diesel to begin a project but I am still very interested in the V-twin models also.

JN

 

[Boss 448]

the Chinese tractor has a single cyl. diesel on it, the type that looks like a hit and miss

Is that engine air-cooled or is it the 'hopper' non-pressurized water cooled variety? If it is the non-pressurized water cooled variety what does the manual tell you to do for winter weather - just empty the water and fill with anti-freeze?

I agree with Big Red Dog about buying American - when and where comparable equipment is available. The reality is that I am not aware of any American manufactured small diesel engines that will fill the bill for these types of conversions.

I think that re-powering old American iron with engines that will increase fuel economy while extending (and even expanding) their usefulness is as American as it gets. The projects that have been shown on this forum exemplify good old American ingenuity. The fact that we must select from foreign made engines illustrates the fact that we live in a world-wide economy. I doubt that an American manufacturer would start building small diesel engines just because a handful of us decided to hold off on projects until American engines were available.

I think a more practical scenario would be for an American manufacturer (Ingersoll and John Deere come to mind) to start building their high quality, mid to high-end garden tractors with the diesel power plants.

JN

 

[Boss 448]

There probably just isn't enough of a market to bring back a mid sized tractor with a diesel.

You're probably right. Everything is driven by demand and I don't think enough people recognize the potential advantages of a small diesel engine to create a market. The average home-owner probably views a diesel engine as something very mysterious and it could take a very aggressive marketing campaign to create demand and acceptance.

Those of us that choose to build and knock around (literally) on diesel powered GT's are probably viewed by friends, family and neighbors as a bit strange. That's OK though, I think normal people are very strange. :confuse:

JN