Diesel or Gas?

1134 Views 26 Replies 12 Participants Last post by mtoney, 14 d ago

Frugal_Tinkerer

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago

2

So, I've done some looking around for an engine for a possible engine swap this summer. I'm looking to put a bigger engine in like a 129 or something similar. If I can get one with a mechanically locked up engine so I can just drop in another engine. I had two main ideas for the engines. A horizontal shaft B&S 402707 (or similar engine) or a Yanmar 2V-78 (or similar engine). What do you think? I know half the battle is even finding one of these engines, but that aside what would be a better swap? I know it seems outlandish to swap a biggity riggity diesel into a GT that looks like it sat in a scrap heap for 12 years, but I feel like it would almost make some sense. I dunno, I just want the opinion of someone other than my optimistic self.

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FrankIII

· #2 · 2 mo ago

I've never had a diesel, but I'll be honest, that would sure be an interesting swap. Will a Briggs opposed fit in between the frame rails of a 129?

If I were you, I might keep an eye out for an existing diesel GT. I know Cub Cadet and JD made them. Is that Yanmar engine you pictured vertical shaft? I see something sticking out the underside.

EDIT: I think a repower in an old Cub is a great idea. I know everybody is like "The Kohler K-series is the best engine ever!" but I can't see why.

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KennyP

· #3 · 2 mo ago

About the biggest issue is finding something that fits down into the frame rails. Those aren't very wide.

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Achto

· #4 · 2 mo ago

I installed a 10hp Hatz 1B40 diesel into an older Wheel Horse.

Pluses -
Incredible torque. I use it for pulling a 10" moldboard plow, have hooked it to a pulling eliminator. I have yet to find anything that will make it pull hard on the governor.
Fuel economy, pulling a mold board plow it uses about 3.5cups of fuel per hour.

Minuses - Ain't found any yet.

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FrankIII

· #5 · 2 mo ago

KennyP said:
About the biggest issue is finding something that fits down into the frame rails. Those aren't very wide.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

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Frugal_Tinkerer

Discussion Starter · #6 · 2 mo ago

FrankIII said:
I've never had a diesel, but I'll be honest, that would sure be an interesting swap. Will a Briggs opposed fit in between the frame rails of a 129?

If I were you, I might keep an eye out for an existing diesel GT. I know Cub Cadet and JD made them. Is that Yanmar engine you pictured vertical shaft? I see something sticking out the underside.

EDIT: I think a repower in an old Cub is a great idea. I know everybody is like "The Kohler K-series is the best engine ever!" but I can't see why.

Yeah I was thinking about widening the frame rails, although I don't know how easy it is to do that. Also the engine comes in both horizontal and vertical shaft variants, but that particular picture has a vertical. About just buying an existing diesel, it's a bit to expensive for what I want, which is why I can essentially spend $150 on a locked up one, maybe get it running and sell it for around the same price as the whole GT, then buy a $300 non-running Yanmar (although it's hard to find a non-running Yanmar) or a $100 non-running Briggs (more possible), get it running, and drop it in. It's all about getting the fat new engine to fit not only between the frame rails but also the loader arms if I do get a loader for it. I know the Yanmar will be far more expensive than I would usually pay for, but with the fuel savings it would be worth it. I did find an alternative diesel while I was looking though... this Yanmar 3TN66UJ:

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Frugal_Tinkerer

Discussion Starter · #7 · 2 mo ago

Achto said:
I installed a 10hp Hatz 1B40 diesel into an older Wheel Horse.

Pluses -
Incredible torque. I use it for pulling a 10" moldboard plow, have hooked it to a pulling eliminator. I have yet to find anything that will make it pull hard on the governor.
Fuel economy, pulling a mold board plow it uses about 3.5cups of fuel per hour.

Minuses - Ain't found any yet.

Yeah I was also doing it for fuel economy and torque

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FrankIII

· #8 · 2 mo ago

The Briggs Vanguard V-twins are more compact than the opposed and far more fuel efficient. That's what I put in my Cub, although it's got the wider frame rails. Those engines were actaually made by Daihatsu and not Briggs but they are great engines. Daihatsu also has some little diesels, I think.

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Frugal_Tinkerer

Discussion Starter · #9 · 2 mo ago

FrankIII said:
The Briggs Vanguard V-twins are more compact than the opposed and far more fuel efficient. That's what I put in my Cub, although it's got the wider frame rails. Those engines were actaually made by Daihatsu and not Briggs but they are great engines. Daihatsu also has some little diesels, I think.

I usually prefer the opposed twin because of my familiarity with them, but I have heard the Vanguard's are also pretty good. But if I was going for a cheaper build I think the older Briggs would work for now. As far as the diesels I will only touch Yanmar's and maybe Kubota's. They are some of the most resilient little diesels out there and while I'm better at working on diesels then gas, I'm still not wanting to fix something very often. To quote someone who has owned a lot of small diesel engines: "If a piece of machinery has a Yanmar, BUY IT." Before I made this post I was leaning more towards a gas swap, but now I'm on the ladder side. I thought it would be a stretch to swap a diesel but maybe it isn't. I still might have to gas swap it just for the price or if I can find a dead diesel, but I don't know.

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Achto

· #10 · 2 mo ago

Frugal_Tinkerer said:
I will only touch Yanmar's and maybe Kubota's

Not inexpensive by any means, but don't be afraid of a Hatz engine if you happen to come across one at a good price. They are an extremely resilient German made engine.

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bmaverick

· #11 · 2 mo ago

Frugal_Tinkerer said:
So, I've done some looking around for an engine for a possible engine swap this summer. I'm looking to put a bigger engine in like a 129 or something similar. If I can get one with a mechanically locked up engine so I can just drop in another engine. I had two main ideas for the engines. A horizontal shaft B&S 402707 (or similar engine) or a Yanmar 2V-78 (or similar engine). What do you think? I know half the battle is even finding one of these engines, but that aside what would be a better swap? I know it seems outlandish to swap a biggity riggity diesel into a GT that looks like it sat in a scrap heap for 12 years, but I feel like it would almost make some sense. I dunno, I just want the opinion of someone other than my optimistic self.
View attachment 420982 View attachment 420983

Go DIESEL.

It's anyone's guess, yet the hint is, gasoline will be very expensive going forwards to being only available for fleet use with an authorized card. Diesel will be available and so will the EVs.

People are nearly dumping gas powered equipment like fire sales lately.

On the other tractor forums, we are looking at the easy and clever ways to make your own diesel should it become a hard thing to get. Diesel engines pre-emmision era were literally designed to run on just about anything. My Yanmar does exactly that. Peanut oil, Canola oil, filtered used motor oil, filtered old hydraulic fluid, etc all works. Likewise, melting down HDPE, LDPE and straight polypropylene plastics in a tank will generate the oil vapor fuels to make diesel. More can be found here:

www.tractorforum.com

BIODIESEL - Could you make your own - M.E.N says you can

Biodiesel Fuel: Homegrown Oil By Greg Pahl https://www.motherearthnews.com/sustainable-living/green-transportation/biodiesel-fuel-zmaz06fmzwar or download the article attached in easy PDF

www.tractorforum.com

www.tractorforum.com

The world and agendas are changing, don't be sidelined with equipment to be too expensive to run due to the fuels to operate it. Beat those odds by thinking smartly vs. being in the masses that are stuck with gas powered anything feeling the difficult pain. Wish it was easy to make gasoline so easy like diesel.

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bmaverick

· #12 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Frugal_Tinkerer said:
Yeah I was thinking about widening the frame rails, although I don't know how easy it is to do that. Also the engine comes in both horizontal and vertical shaft variants, but that particular picture has a vertical. About just buying an existing diesel, it's a bit to expensive for what I want, which is why I can essentially spend $150 on a locked up one, maybe get it running and sell it for around the same price as the whole GT, then buy a $300 non-running Yanmar (although it's hard to find a non-running Yanmar) or a $100 non-running Briggs (more possible), get it running, and drop it in. It's all about getting the fat new engine to fit not only between the frame rails but also the loader arms if I do get a loader for it. I know the Yanmar will be far more expensive than I would usually pay for, but with the fuel savings it would be worth it. I did find an alternative diesel while I was looking though... this Yanmar 3TN66UJ:
View attachment 420987

A running Yanmar engine for $500.

akroncanton.craigslist.org

Military diesel generator - general for sale - by owner

MEP 016D Yanmar L70 air cooled diesel engine. Starts first pull. 3000 watt, 899 hours, runs and makes power as it should. Easy on fuel, fuel tank is strapped on top for gravity feed. Fresh oil...

akroncanton.craigslist.org

MEP 016D Yanmar L70 air cooled diesel engine

The L70 and L100 would fit a SCUT lawn tractor just fine.

There are many Yanmar 2-cly engines too.

The 3TN66UJ is used in many Deere machines. There is a 3TN72 size as well. I have all the Yanmar manuals for free at, since I'm the 3rd owner and site administrator.

yanmar-tractor-owners.groups.io

main groups.io Group

*Yanmar Tractor Owners Group.* **US models, Gray market models, Cub Cadet models, RK models, even our green siblings known as Deere's. ** *A valuable source for owners of Yanmar tractors.* * * *If you would like to join our group, then click on the +Join This Group button below left. *NOTE: A...

yanmar-tractor-owners.groups.io

#1 330 16hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 658cc
#2 332 16hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 658cc
#3 430 20hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 885cc
#4 455 22hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 881cc
#5 355D 18hp Diesel Yanmar 2 cylinder 749cc
#6 X495 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1,006cc or 1116cc
#7 X595 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1,006cc or 1116cc
#8 X740 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1116cc or 904cc
#9 X744 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1116cc or 904cc
#10 X748 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1116cc or 904cc
#11 X749 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1116cc or 904cc
#12 X750 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder
#13 X754 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder
#14 X758 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder
#15 GX355 18HP Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 749cc

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Frugal_Tinkerer

Discussion Starter · #13 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

bmaverick said:
A running Yanmar engine for $500.

Military diesel generator - general for sale - by owner

MEP 016D Yanmar L70 air cooled diesel engine. Starts first pull. 3000 watt, 899 hours, runs and makes power as it should. Easy on fuel, fuel tank is strapped on top for gravity feed. Fresh oil...

akroncanton.craigslist.org

MEP 016D Yanmar L70 air cooled diesel engine

The L70 and L100 would fit a SCUT lawn tractor just fine.

There are many Yanmar 2-cly engines too.

The 3TN66UJ is used in many Deere machines. There is a 3TN72 size as well. I have all the Yanmar manuals for free at, since I'm the 3rd owner and site administrator.

main groups.io Group

*Yanmar Tractor Owners Group.* **US models, Gray market models, Cub Cadet models, RK models, even our green siblings known as Deere's. ** *A valuable source for owners of Yanmar tractors.* * * *If you would like to join our group, then click on the +Join This Group button below left. *NOTE: A...

yanmar-tractor-owners.groups.io

#1 330 16hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 658cc
#2 332 16hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 658cc
#3 430 20hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 885cc
#4 455 22hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 881cc
#5 355D 18hp Diesel Yanmar 2 cylinder 749cc
#6 X495 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1,006cc or 1116cc
#7 X595 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1,006cc or 1116cc
#8 X740 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1116cc or 904cc
#9 X744 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1116cc or 904cc
#10 X748 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1116cc or 904cc
#11 X749 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 1116cc or 904cc
#12 X750 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder
#13 X754 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder
#14 X758 24hp Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder
#15 GX355 18HP Diesel Yanmar 3 cylinder 749cc

I could rant on for hours how we need to all switch to diesel, but in my small world, I believe diesels a wee bit expensive because it's harder to find a non-running one. Also you said two cycle? As in like a Detroit Diesel? You're speaking my language now. I know that they are vastly different in concept to Detroit's, but they are still going to be so reliable you would bet your life it would start. The real trick is now finding the right one. You said about that $500 one, but it seems like it's not designed to fit in a GT and also it will be a while until I can even afford this project.

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Frugal_Tinkerer

Discussion Starter · #14 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Achto said:
Not inexpensive by any means, but don't be afraid of a Hatz engine if you happen to come across one at a good price. They are an extremely resilient German made engine.

I would trust in a German diesel, but I'd have to find one in the right size for me. The guy I was quoting actually had a compacter with a Hatz diesel, but he had to get a whole new engine for it, and to get it he had to find it at a military surplus auction. Otherwise, wouldn't be a bad option. Really, I just don't want to touch Onans.

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malsup

· #15 · 2 mo ago

If anyone is seriously considering a diesel GT I put them in my GT's all of the time. I have seven diesels in my storage right now. 2 3 cylinder liquid cooled Yanmars, 1 Kubota 2 cylinder liquid cooled D600, 2 Yanmar 2 cylinder liquid cooled 16hp and and 1 Kohler 2 cylinder liquid cooled with a spare parts engine. Lastly I am currently installing a 3 cylinder liquid cooled totally machined a new parts rebuild kit at 50mm+ into a Cub 184 Loboy restomod.

As far as price the $500 you all are discussing won't get it in northern Illinois. We're more in the neighborhood of $1,000. Makes a great repower.

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Christoph from Germany

· #16 · 2 mo ago

Well - I am a German and here gas was always much more expensive than diesel. So a diesel engine has the nimbus of a work horse - fuel efficiant, powerful, reliable because normally made for industrial heavy duty use.
So the most big tractors here are diesel.
I would love to get a small diesel engine to swap into my garden tractor - but often they are pretty expensive!
Some of the 2 cylinder ruggeriny diesel wer used in Gutbrods 20... serieas and have issues with the crank shaft bearing - but this is only what I heard... I don't have experiance by myself.
We have a motorcycle company here in Germany, using hatz diesel and put them into Royal Enfield frames - especially because the old Enfields have a separate gear box - very iconic motorcycle, just with only 10-11 hp - but a fully filled gas tank is enough for the season ;-)

But diesel engine have a disadvantage - you need winter diesel, diesel fuel with additives otherwise the diesel could ...I don't know how to explain... get creamy at cold temperatures. So it depends where you live and what you want to do with your tractor.

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Frugal_Tinkerer

Discussion Starter · #17 · 2 mo ago

Christoph from Germany said:
Well - I am a German and here gas was always much more expensive than diesel. So a diesel engine has the nimbus of a work horse - fuel efficiant, powerful, reliable because normally made for industrial heavy duty use.
So the most big tractors here are diesel.
I would love to get a small diesel engine to swap into my garden tractor - but often they are pretty expensive!
Some of the 2 cylinder ruggeriny diesel wer used in Gutbrods 20... serieas and have issues with the crank shaft bearing - but this is only what I heard... I don't have experiance by myself.
We have a motorcycle company here in Germany, using hatz diesel and put them into Royal Enfield frames - especially because the old Enfields have a separate gear box - very iconic motorcycle, just with only 10-11 hp - but a fully filled gas tank is enough for the season ;-)

But diesel engine have a disadvantage - you need winter diesel, diesel fuel with additives otherwise the diesel could ...I don't know how to explain... get creamy at cold temperatures. So it depends where you live and what you want to do with your tractor.

I also was looking for a diesel for those main reasons, but I also wanted one simply because I don't really know much about working on gas engines. Carburetor? What's that? Spark plugs? I thought glow plugs weren't supposed to spark? I know about the whole "diesels hate the cold", but I also have my methods of dealing with diesels in the cold.

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Vigo

· #18 · 2 mo ago

If anyone is seriously considering a diesel GT I put them in my GT's all of the time. I have seven diesels in my storage right now. 2 3 cylinder liquid cooled Yanmars, 1 Kubota 2 cylinder liquid cooled D600, 2 Yanmar 2 cylinder liquid cooled 16hp and and 1 Kohler 2 cylinder liquid cooled with a spare parts engine. Lastly I am currently installing a 3 cylinder liquid cooled totally machined a new parts rebuild kit at 50mm+ into a Cub 184 Loboy restomod.

Well, in a separate thread or threads we're gonna need more detail.. on ALL of that! lol

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boatmoter

· #19 · 2 mo ago

Frugal_Tinkerer said:
So, I've done some looking around for an engine for a possible engine swap this summer. I'm looking to put a bigger engine in like a 129 or something similar. If I can get one with a mechanically locked up engine so I can just drop in another engine. I had two main ideas for the engines. A horizontal shaft B&S 402707 (or similar engine) or a Yanmar 2V-78 (or similar engine). What do you think? I know half the battle is even finding one of these engines, but that aside what would be a better swap? I know it seems outlandish to swap a biggity riggity diesel into a GT that looks like it sat in a scrap heap for 12 years, but I feel like it would almost make some sense. I dunno, I just want the opinion of someone other than my optimistic self.
View attachment 420982 View attachment 420983

isn't there some type of additive you can use to stop the fuel from going bad? Im sure if you had a little summer fuel in the tank you could drive until it needed a refill

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Christoph from Germany

· #20 · 2 mo ago

Well - it depends a llot on the quality of the diesel fuel you get.
Here in Europe there is quite a percentage of BIO-diesel in the regular Diesel you can buy at the gas-station.
I know that boat owners, who do not use the boats over wintertime sometime struggle with "Dieselpest"
Wikipedia says: "Diesel bug is contamination of diesel fuel by microbes such as bacteria and fungi "
And yes, there are additives available.

It also depends on the temperatures where you live and first of all: How often you use the tractor and how much diesel fuel you normally "send through the engine" per time.
But I think you run into similar issues with a gas engine like rost in the tank, if not filled or dry out gaskets when no fuel is in the carb...

My 2 cents: It's a lot of hyphothetical concerns, ifs and whenns...
If I had a small diesel engine available for sure I wouldn't hesitate to swap it.

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