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OK you guys, try the video again.

I broke my regular lens and I've been using a small prime lens so its hard to get a close up because I can't zoom but I have some manual lenses I am going to try. The intake had no wobble so I didn't check if it was seated properly. I will have to check.

And dam it! The more I look into it, the worse its getting lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #144 ·
Ok you guys, I am back. Things have been a little rough on my end so working on the tractor had been pushed back in priorities. Got my self an old murray to cut my lawn in the mean time.

Anyways, I have taken out the valve stems. The valve stems themselves seem to be within specs according to my old harbor freight caliper. Unfortunately I do not have anyway to measure the ID on the valve guides. Considering that the OD is ok on my valve stems, I am going to assume that the valve guides are bad. On the exhaust side, the valve moves excessively. If I bring it up about half ways, it will move about 1/16th - 1/8th. More the higher I go. On the intake side. The movement is minuscule. I did measure this one and I was getting about 18 thousands side to side movement.

The valve seats do not seem to be in bad shape. The exhaust is still polished and I don't see any deformities. I will take some pictures when I get my camera charged. Hope to be able to reuse them. And valve guides are cheap enough that I am just going to replace both of them.

Hope to get this thing moving under its own power soon.

Thanks for looking,

GhoSt
 

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Good to see you back working on your tractor again.

I would say that the amount of carbon build up on the intake valve and port is normal for your engine - I have attached pictures of my TRA10D and what they looked like on it when I took it apart and after I cleaned the intake area up during reassembly. The intake area of my engine was not machined very smooth on the exhaust side of the intake chamber and was a rough casting and yours is probably similar and what appears to be a lot of carbon build up may just be the rough casting area. The other thing that may have caused this was that your engine did not appear to have any power under load as I read back through your thread. I had a similar problem with mine an eventually found out that (due to my own stupidity) the governor spring was not adjusted properly - the fact that the engine would have been lugged more than it would have if the governor was working properly may have contributed to the bit of carbon build up in mine - yours could have been caused by a similar problem. To check the size of the inside of your valve guides you could see how snug a 5/16" drill bit fits inside them - a new 5/16" drill bit should measure approximately .3125" in diameter - you can measure it with a micrometer or Vernier to verify the diameter of the drill bit.

For the cost of two new guides I would suggest replacing them with new ones. My old valves appeared to be sloppy in the guides as well but with new guides and valves there was still some sideways movement - fyi.
 

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Great tractor and great thread! Has an old California rat rod look to it.

To me (disclaimer: never worked on a Wisconsin) the carbon in the intake looks like exhaust blow-back through an intake valve that wasn't seated fully or evenly (which is what your one picture looks like). The seat, however, appears that the valve was seating. I tore apart an old Tecumseh 10 hp for my Snapper this past winter that ate a pint of oil every hour of running, and the intake was clean inside from the gasoline passing by it.

If it was me (and maybe you've already done this) I'd do a full rebuild on the carb (all seats, needles, etc) to cure the bogging under load (3rd is a load), unless I missed that problem was fixed. I'd also pull the piston for a quick hone, new rings, along with new valves, a lap, and grinding of the stems. The constantly loosening head bolts after 2 torquings (they were torqued and not just tightened, right?) give me pause. Check for a cracked block at the bolt holes.

I also wouldn't bother with the hose fitting on the mower deck... all those are good for is jamming water up into the blade shaft bearings. I use an old gasket scraper to remove grass after every mow, and at the end of every season, pull the deck off for a complete cleaning.

Your fab skills seem to be on point... getting this thing running, and making an engine heat shield, are definitely within your skill set. Looking forward to reading about the progress on this. :thumbs:
 

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Good to see you back working on your tractor again.

I would say that the amount of carbon build up on the intake valve and port is normal for your engine - I have attached pictures of my TRA10D and what they looked like on it when I took it apart and after I cleaned the intake area up during reassembly. The intake area of my engine was not machined very smooth on the exhaust side of the intake chamber and was a rough casting and yours is probably similar and what appears to be a lot of carbon build up may just be the rough casting area. The other thing that may have caused this was that your engine did not appear to have any power under load as I read back through your thread. I had a similar problem with mine an eventually found out that (due to my own stupidity) the governor spring was not adjusted properly - the fact that the engine would have been lugged more than it would have if the governor was working properly may have contributed to the bit of carbon build up in mine - yours could have been caused by a similar problem. To check the size of the inside of your valve guides you could see how snug a 5/16" drill bit fits inside them - a new 5/16" drill bit should measure approximately .3125" in diameter - you can measure it with a micrometer or Vernier to verify the diameter of the drill bit.

For the cost of two new guides I would suggest replacing them with new ones. My old valves appeared to be sloppy in the guides as well but with new guides and valves there was still some sideways movement - fyi.
Hey Stew, thanks for answering. I went ahead and bought the two valve guides with the tool but out of curiosity, I will check the old valve guides with the drill bit. If you say there is some sideways movement, I am willing to bet that the intake side is ok. Would I be able to remove them without removing the valve tappet? I will look into it tomorrow but I sure hope I don't have to remove them.

I think I ended up doing this to the engine when I was messing with the governor. When I first got her, I plowed and mowed a little with all the bad bearings on the deck and she powered right through. Then she went down for a new clutch and since then, I couldn't get her to run right. While cleaning the carb, I also "adjusted" the governor because I felt there was to much slack on it. In my mind, fix two problems at one time. Since then it has been a loosing battle. I think what happened is that I over reved the little motor. Then, I think it was you that said to check the governor level for slippage because of the philips screw on it. Sure enough, after marking it, I could see it moving slightly but the lever wasn't. It's been so frustrating but you live and learn.

Great tractor and great thread! Has an old California rat rod look to it.

To me (disclaimer: never worked on a Wisconsin) the carbon in the intake looks like exhaust blow-back through an intake valve that wasn't seated fully or evenly (which is what your one picture looks like). The seat, however, appears that the valve was seating. I tore apart an old Tecumseh 10 hp for my Snapper this past winter that ate a pint of oil every hour of running, and the intake was clean inside from the gasoline passing by it.

If it was me (and maybe you've already done this) I'd do a full rebuild on the carb (all seats, needles, etc) to cure the bogging under load (3rd is a load), unless I missed that problem was fixed. I'd also pull the piston for a quick hone, new rings, along with new valves, a lap, and grinding of the stems. The constantly loosening head bolts after 2 torquings (they were torqued and not just tightened, right?) give me pause. Check for a cracked block at the bolt holes.

I also wouldn't bother with the hose fitting on the mower deck... all those are good for is jamming water up into the blade shaft bearings. I use an old gasket scraper to remove grass after every mow, and at the end of every season, pull the deck off for a complete cleaning.

Your fab skills seem to be on point... getting this thing running, and making an engine heat shield, are definitely within your skill set. Looking forward to reading about the progress on this. :thumbs:
Hey thanks for the compliment :D

I do think my rings are ok. I never got any smoke or loss of oil. The head bolts, I never checked them previously. When I first got the tractor, I slapped the motor on, got her running then did a tune up. It wasn't till after I got her running back again after the clutch and trying to figure out why it wasn't running right that I discovered the head bolts loose. I did check them a couple of times afterwards to make sure they were not coming loose and they remained tight. I will check for any cracks and clean the head to make sure I have a good surface for a proper seal as per Mark J's recommendation.

Grinding of valve stems? Not really sure how I would do that. I am a bit budget constraint to be taking things up to a machine shop at the moment unfortunately. They were within specs though, as far at thickness. One thing, I would like to check for is runout. Would that matter though? Since they are not a spinning part. I don't have a lathe but I do have a dial. I was thinking on using my drill to spin it and check them that way.

I am confident that after putting in the new guides, lapping. Cleaning the head. Making sure the governor and governor lever arm are functioning properly, that it will run right.

Thanks for looking and helping out guys.

GhoSt
 

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Would I be able to remove them without removing the valve tappet? I will look into it tomorrow but I sure hope I don't have to remove them.

Grinding of valve stems? Not really sure how I would do that.
I think you can remove the guides without removing the tappets. An easy way to check would be to take a new guide and set it in the valve spring chamber and see how far it protrudes down from the top of the valve chamber opening - check to see if it will clear the tappet when it is pressed all the way out of the block. I have attached the pages from the Wisconsin manual that shows replacing the guides - it does not mention having to remove the tappets.

If the valves were set correctly before and you do not remove much material when you lap the valves then they will probably not need to have the ends of the stems ground to reset the clearance but you should check them after you lap the valves. If you do have to grind the stems remove a little bit at a time - you can use a sander or grinding disc in a drill. When I installed the new valves I had to grind some off of the stems to set the clearance. I used a set of feeler gauges and when I started I had about .002" of clearance (if I remember correctly) and sanded very small amounts off the ends of the valves at a time and then rechecked the clearance by using the incremental sizes of the feeler gauges to see what the new clearance was. I inserted the feeler gauge in between the tappet and the valve and pushed down on the top of the valve with my finger. Then I would see if the feeler gauge would slide out or if it was trapped between the valve and the tappet. For example I would insert the .002" feeler in and if it pulled out ok them I would insert the .003" feeler and see if it was trapped or slid out. If it was trapped then I knew that I had more than .002" but less than .003" of clearance. Then I would sand the end of the valve a bit more and repeat the measurement - working my way up until I had reached the correct clearance. This method takes a bit of time but it lets you get a feel of how much material you are removing at each sanding and lets you reach the correct clearance without exceeding it. Make sure that if you have to remove any material off the end that you keep the end of the valve square and at 90 degrees to the stem. Also make sure that you wipe any dirt and debris off the valve before you put it back in to recheck the clearance Another thing to remember is that some feeler gauge sets omit certain sizes and that you can place two clean feeler gauges on top of each other to create a missing size. For example if you have a .001" and a .002" gauge but the next size in the set is .004" you can place the .001" and the .002" gauge together to create a .003" size - after you make sure they are clean and flat.

Hope this helps
 

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29Chev provided a perfect step-by-step for grinding the valve stems. All I'll add is that you'll need to check proper clearance between valve stem and tappet in order to ensure the valve closes completely. After 40-50 years of use on the engine, clearance is probably tight before the lapping; on the Tecumseh TVM220, I had to grind off a fair amount with the bench grinder. I'd also installed new valves. If you're on a budget (aren't we all?) and going this far, checking clearance is a necessity, and grinding the stems easy peasy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #151 ·
Hey Stew, thank you for the explanations. I have a belt sander I can use to do exactly what you said. I have a minor update but I did run into an issue and I am not sure if this is going to cause me any trouble.

Let start off with everything going well. Guides came out and right back in without any issues. I was able to pull them out without removing the tappets. The driver tool I bought is a snug fit into the valve guide holes but with some pliers and a piece of wood, slid right out.

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The tool.

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New guides in!!!

Here is where the trouble begins. After lapping the intake side, I did the exhaust side which I discovered that the seat might be a little oblong. I first hit it with the fine grit but I wasn't touching this area.

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So I started hitting it with the coarse grit until the grinding compound started touching it. Around the seat the polish is completely gone but in that area, there is still just a tad bit of polish on it. Its more like opaque. I stopped because the valve steam is now touching the whole seat. Should I continue till it looks the same all the way around or would this be enough?

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Hard to photograph the details but I hope you can kind of make out what it looks like. You can still see a little bit of reflection on it.

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The other sides of the seat you can tell that the reflection is completely gone where the valve touches. You can compare it to the little right on top that is still polished.

The exhaust valve stem with its brand new lapped ring. I believe it might have been new because there was no ring on it before.

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And this is how it sits on the seat. Tomorrow I will gauge out the size of that gap.

I also went ahead and took readings on both valves to tappet clearance. For the intake I got between 0.006"-0.0065" which I guess is pretty much on the spot. Manual calls out for 0.006". And the exhaust I got between 0.004" -0.0045". This one needs to be put at 0.012".

That is all I got for today.

Thanks again for looking and I appreciate everybody's help.

GhoSt
 

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Should I continue till it looks the same all the way around or would this be enough?

I also went ahead and took readings on both valves to tappet clearance. For the intake I got between 0.006"-0.0065" which I guess is pretty much on the spot. Manual calls out for 0.006". And the exhaust I got between 0.004" -0.0045". This one needs to be put at 0.012".

.

GhoSt
Glad you got the new guides installed ok. Looking at your pictures my opinion is that your valve should seal fine on the seat. I assume that you are measuring the clearance on the exhaust with the tappet in the lowest position as per the manual.

If you only had .004" of clearance on the exhaust valve whith the engine cold it is possible that the exhaust valve was being held open a tiny bit by the tappet when the engine got up to operating temperature (as the valve and tappet expanded from the heat) which may have contributed to the lack of power once things got warm - I wonder if someone installed a new exhaust valve and did not bother to check the clearance when they did it?
 

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Nice work! I like to spray a little brake clean around the valve and seat to see if it is sealed. If it leaks continue to lap!
 
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Discussion Starter · #154 ·
Glad you got the new guides installed ok. Looking at your pictures my opinion is that your valve should seal fine on the seat. I assume that you are measuring the clearance on the exhaust with the tappet in the lowest position as per the manual.

If you only had .004" of clearance on the exhaust valve whith the engine cold it is possible that the exhaust valve was being held open a tiny bit by the tappet when the engine got up to operating temperature (as the valve and tappet expanded from the heat) which may have contributed to the lack of power once things got warm - I wonder if someone installed a new exhaust valve and did not bother to check the clearance when they did it?
Yes, I even turned the crank back and fort to make sure I was at the lowest point on the tappet. Unfortunately I didn't check the clearance before the lapping to compare but it took a bit of time to get the valve to touch the seat completely so it's possible I made the clearance tighter. For sure, I wasn't getting a complete seal before lapping.

In my inexperienced eyes, it does look new and the valve seat had a mirror polish on it. Maybe they were both new and not lap to ensure a proper seal? I never asked the owner I bought it from if he had worked on it but he said that I would be disappointed in the motor because it had no power and that I should be looking into putting in a newer motor. When I tinkered with it before it went down, I thought it ran fine but I don't have anything to compare it to. Well, regardless, I will do my best to set it up right.

Thanks again for your help.

GhoSt
 

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With an exhaust valve leak and tight tappet clearance, you'll definitely have some power now! Due to differences in measuring power over the decades, you've got to have a much higher power level today to equal the power back then, IMO. I've got a 14 hp OHV Kohler on my Snapper today to do what it did new with an 8 hp. The 7 hp Kohler in my '60 Cub is never lacking for power, and the 8 hp Kohler in the '65 Jake will pull over a half ton in my trailer in 3rd without issue, even up hill. Meanwhile, the 26 hp V-twin in my Husqvarna dies if not warmed up and there's grass built up under the deck when engaging the blades. Never had that happen in all the old sub-10 hp tractors I've had. Long story short, I think you'll notice a big difference. I love doing the engine work you're doing.
 

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With an exhaust valve leak and tight tappet clearance, you'll definitely have some power now! Due to differences in measuring power over the decades, you've got to have a much higher power level today to equal the power back then, IMO. I've got a 14 hp OHV Kohler on my Snapper today to do what it did new with an 8 hp. The 7 hp Kohler in my '60 Cub is never lacking for power, and the 8 hp Kohler in the '65 Jake will pull over a half ton in my trailer in 3rd without issue, even up hill. Meanwhile, the 26 hp V-twin in my Husqvarna dies if not warmed up and there's grass built up under the deck when engaging the blades. Never had that happen in all the old sub-10 hp tractors I've had. Long story short, I think you'll notice a big difference. I love doing the engine work you're doing.
I've heard this before. Could it also be that maybe these older engines had a longer stroke thus creating more torque per hp then these newer engines? This is my first time working on a small engine. Most I have done is replacing the timing belt and water pump on my MR2 but never cracked it open, well until now since the headgasket went bad after overheating but my brother is helping me out with it since he is more mechanically inclined.

I do have to say that I enjoyed working on the wisconsin but I've been a bit hesitant to really go deep and do a full rebuild simply because for one, these tractor and engines are rare down here so I am afraid to do something wrong and ruin it. I did a craigslist search on the US and there are some states were these are a dime a dozen. And two, I am not fully financially stable at the moment so buying and shipping an engine is out of reach for me. Hopefully when my wife and I are settled into our new jobs, this will change for the best. There are other implements I'd wish to obtain.

And on to some good news! SHE LIVES!!!! Thanks to all you guys and your help. Been running her around for the last 3 days making sure its not a fluke but she seems stable and consistent. I am still working on the throttle. I have to take it out about half ways before the engine begins to speed up but the governor is doing its job and keeping her alive.

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Got a tiller a couple a months ago but I have yet to run it. I do have a problem though. Maybe you guys can help me out?

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Got myself the book. I find it much easier going through actually pages troubleshooting then trying to keep the laptop alive with no power in the shed.

And here is my problem with the tiller. I do not believe the drive shaft supplied is the correct one for it. It is a telescoping one that is about 44" fully closed. Measuring the tiller shaft to the PTO on the tractor it is roughly 37" if I am remembering correctly. Unless tube frames varied from model to model, I am thinking this belongs to something else.

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The letters says USA and NB on the u-joint on one side and the other which I didn't take a picture. Its a different type of u-joint with the letters Kaydon M-060906. A quick google search showed that john deere was one company that used this type of ujoint. Maybe someone with more experience can confirm this?

Ebay showed nothing for drive shafts. Anybody know where I could get one? Or what type of ujoint was used and size of tubing? I have a millermatice 180, maybe I could make one? Or is this something better left for the pros? The model tiller I have is a 33" 18618-01.

Thanks for your help and looking,

Jesse
 

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Glad to hear you have it running again and working ok.

That driveshaft does not look right as the spline is wrong to fit on the tube frame PTO. I have the same model tiller and the driveshaft on it is a fixed length - the splined end slides on the tractor pto splines as the tiller is raised or lowered. I will have to check when I get a chance to see if it buried under snow or if I can take some pictures and get some measurements for you. There is a parts manual of the tiller in the manuals section - http://gardentractortalk.com/forums/files/file/1432-18618-01-02-25in-tillerpdf/
 

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Discussion Starter · #159 ·
Glad to hear you have it running again and working ok.

That driveshaft does not look right as the spline is wrong to fit on the tube frame PTO. I have the same model tiller and the driveshaft on it is a fixed length - the splined end slides on the tractor pto splines as the tiller is raised or lowered. I will have to check when I get a chance to see if it buried under snow or if I can take some pictures and get some measurements for you. There is a parts manual of the tiller in the manuals section - http://gardentractortalk.com/forums/files/file/1432-18618-01-02-25in-tillerpdf/
Hey Stew,

You are right. I forgot that our pto has 6 splines. I didn't even check because I stopped as soon as I saw it was to long. I do have the manual for it but my search came up with nothing with the part #1713550. I did find this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bolens-G-14-Tube-Frame-Tractor-Rototiller-PTO-Driveshaft/202113620442?hash=item2f0ee919da:g:GgYAAOSwWflaCwD8

Do you think that would work since it is a tubeframe? I also went to tractor supply and they have what it takes to build 90% of it. It does come out a little pricey though.

  • 10000648 - 6N Yoke and shaft - $84.99
  • 800-0612- 6N Yoke 3/4" - $26.99
  • 11000648 - 6N Yoke and Tube Assembly - $89.99
  • 200-0600 - Cross Bearing Kit - 2x $19.99

Total: ~$242 + yoke

Then I would have to find a bolens 6 spline ujoint and cannibalism it to complete it. Another option would be welding.

  • 300-0600 - Weld on 6 Series Yoke - 2x $27.99
  • 200-0600 - Cross Bearing Kit - 2x $19.99
  • 800-0612- 6N Yoke 3/4" - $26.99
  • 2" or 1-1/2 sch40? tube - $?

Total: ~$123 + tube + 6 spline yoke

No rush but If you could get those measurements would be awesome to get a complete price on the welding one.

Thanks in advance

GhoSt
 

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Went out and looked this morning and right now it is covered in snow and the wind is up so it may be a day or two before I get a chance to get measurements.

I don't believe that anyone makes the six spline yoke new anymore - I talked to a chap at Neapco several years ago and the way he spoke they supplied the yoke originally but obsoleted it in the late 1990's. They are still available used and worst comes to worst the spline can be cut and placed inside another yoke. This article shows how I repaired an old one that the splines were worn on and the insert I made could just as easily have been placed in side a new yoke that had the inside turned to the correct O.D.

http://gardentractortalk.com/articles.html/_/tech-tips-how-to/how-to-repair-worn-splines-in-a-bolens-tube-fra-r204
 
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