Winch set up

1650 Views 57 Replies 14 Participants Last post by knucklebuster283, 2 mo ago

knucklebuster283

Discussion Starter · 3 mo ago

3

Ain't no expert so need some advice. I am missing the lift assembly for tiller on my 265. So I'm setting it up using a winch to raise and lower the tiller. Question is, do I have enough of an angle on the cable and should I use a bigger pulley in the snatch block. It is 1.5 inches.

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Ingersoll224

· #2 · 3 mo ago

It appears that with your pivot point on the tiller being moved back you should be good with the swing. If the cable with make the turn with out a ton of force the pulley size should be okay. Good news is that if you wear the cable out it will only be 2-3'.

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knucklebuster283

Discussion Starter · #3 · 3 mo ago

Ingersoll224 said:
It appears that with your pivot point on the tiller being moved back you should be good with the swing. If the cable with make the turn with out a ton of force the pulley size should be okay. Good news is that if you wear the cable out it will only be 2-3'.

That's my biggest concern, what effect the pulley will have on the cable

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Ambush

· #4 · 3 mo ago (Edited)

I would be much more inclined to move the winch up and back for a more direct inline lift. With that angle it will take a lot of force to lift the tiller. Not saying it won't do it, but a lot of force will be put where you don't want it. I'd guess the first time it bounces while travelling, the sheet metal on the tiller will bend and or the cable will break.

I would also use a double pulley for more precise depth control.

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secondtry

· #5 · 3 mo ago

The larger the sheave the easier it will be on the cable. Flipping the winch over so it cabled over the top would improve the angle of pull. Also shortening the cable to the point that it would wrap a minimum amount on the winch drum will effectively
make the pull slower and more powerful. The fact that shortening the cable will make it bend tighter around the center of the drum will make jt harder on the cable where it wraps the drum. Some recommend a sheave diameter at least 20 times that of its rope. The quality and flexibility of the cable on a harbor freight winch is marginal. but if you cut it up into 6 foot lengths and just keep swapping it out when it wears the winch will likely quit before you run out of cable.
Don

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Christoph from Germany

· #6 · 2 mo ago

I worked for a drilling company as a mechanical design enegineer for many years. Based on my experiance on big andd heavy drilling rigs I want to confirm Don: as bigger the diameter as easier it is on the cable. But at the other hand you have to work with what you get - you wear out the cable only at a short area around the sheave. At drilling rigs they just move the cable a little bit forward after a certain amount of time. You can do too (but it was already mentioned before).
To improve the angle you need a higher position of the winch. So you could use a longer beam (where the winch is mounted on) and cut out the rear fender.
If you don't want to do so - extend the beam by another one just infront of the one you already have so the winch moves a bit backwards and the fender can stay original.
By setting the winch a bit higher, turning it around and the fixing point over the winch - the situation looks much better.

At the other hand: When the winch is able to do the job just right now...

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Ingersoll224

· #7 · 2 mo ago

Having the cable go over the top of the wench is about as high as I would raise the point of pull. At that point it follows the arc of travel nicely. Going to high results in a vertical pull that does not follow the arc determined by the pinned connection and length of arm on the tiller.

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Christoph from Germany

· #8 · 2 mo ago

Ingersoll224 said:
Having the cable go over the top of the wench is about as high as I would raise the point of pull. At that point it follows the arc of travel nicely. Going to high results in a vertical pull that does not follow the arc determined by the pinned connection and length of arm on the tiller.

Thats a good point!

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Ambush

· #9 · 2 mo ago

Ingersoll224 said:
Having the cable go over the top of the wench is about as high as I would raise the point of pull. At that point it follows the arc of travel nicely. Going to high results in a vertical pull that does not follow the arc determined by the pinned connection and length of arm on the tiller.

Maybe I'm missing something, but because it's a cable and not a fixed linkage, the arms will maintain the arc and the cable will simply follow it.

Just my opinion, but I think that set up will severely distort the tiller shroud at the sheave anchor point. Unless the shroud is 1/4" thick plate, which I doubt. The leverage applied because of the pull geometry is going to be tremendous compared to a dead lift.

Time will tell.

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Ingersoll224

· #10 · 2 mo ago

Ambush said:
Maybe I'm missing something, but because it's a cable and not a fixed linkage, the arms will maintain the arc and the cable will simply follow it.

Just my opinion, but I think that set up will severely distort the tiller shroud at the sheave anchor point. Unless the shroud is 1/4" thick plate, which I doubt. The leverage applied because of the pull geometry is going to be tremendous compared to a dead lift.

Time will tell.

My thought is that the most efficient pull along an arc is when the cable is tangent

That only occurs at one point (shown above). If the red line is the cable, when you pull the angle of the red line to the blue line changes and it be comes a harder pull. It gets progressively harder the further away from 90 degrees the blue and red lines get. For that reason I think I would want the the 90 degree optimum position about 1/2 way through the rotation so that the harder pulls are at each end of the cycle and minimized. Just my thought.

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knucklebuster283

Discussion Starter · #11 · 2 mo ago

So after reading through all your replies, I do need to rethink my set up. First, I agree with Ambush, even though I had added a piece of 1/8th plate to the sheave, I now don't think it's enough. I was going to weld the 1/8th to the shroud. Pics show everything mocked up not fully assembled so I can move things around. Second I agree the sheave itself needs to be of a larger dia. I also looked closer at the sheave, and found it's for rope and not for wire cable. In my head I'm thinking of flipping the whole thing so the winch is at the bottom, sheave mounted above winch, and the fixed point at the tiller. Does this make for a better set up?

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Ambush

· #12 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Ingersoll444, I agree, but I don't think that is being achieved with the pictured set up. Particular at the bottom of the "stroke" the geometry is poor. And in this case I would prefer the best lift advantage to be when the tiller is three inches into the ground. As the tiller is lifted the affective weight is less because weight is then transferred back to the pivot points. Think of it as all the way up (farther than it can ever go) and balanced as compared to straight out at ninety degrees.

Knucklebuster, I'd say you would be much farther ahead with the winch on the bottom and a sheave on a boom. Then leave the sheave on the tiller shroud and run the cable through it to hook back up on the boom near the first sheave. Easier lift and more control.

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Ambush

· #13 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Even make your boom a bit longer so can use it to lift other things as well
like trailer tongues and such.

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knucklebuster283

Discussion Starter · #14 · 2 mo ago

Will get back on this tomorrow. I have COPD not doing so well today. Will have to get larger dia. Sheaves. What would be the best dia.. Was thinking of something along the lines of what Ambush has drawn. After this project is done, a sleeve hitçh will be next. Thanks again for all the replies.

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Ingersoll224

· #15 · 2 mo ago

Ambush said:
Ingersoll444, I agree, but I don't think that is being achieved with the pictured set up. Particular at the bottom of the "stroke" the geometry is poor. And in this case I would prefer the best lift advantage to be when the tiller is three inches into the ground. As the tiller is lifted the affective weight is less because weight is then transferred back to the pivot points. Think of it as all the way up (farther than it can ever go) and balanced as compared to straight out at ninety degrees.

Knucklebuster, I'd say you would be much farther ahead with the winch on the bottom and a sheave on a boom. Then leave the sheave on the tiller shroud and run the cable through it to hook back up on the boom near the first sheave. Easier lift and more control.

Gotcha.

One other thing that exists more at the bottom of the stroke is weight of dirt on the tines.

Do I see the wench and cable hooked to 1/8" plate. I hope the intention is to have that welded to some angles behind that or it will bend immediately.

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cucharared

· #16 · 2 mo ago

knucklebuster283 said:
So after reading through all your replies, I do need to rethink my set up. …deleted text…. In my head I'm thinking of flipping the whole thing so the winch is at the bottom, sheave mounted above winch, and the fixed point at the tiller. Does this make for a better set up?

Just one observation:

Be sure you keep a pulley on the tiller, as that pulley setup has a mechanical advantage of 2 (doubles the lifting power and halves the speed). Moving that pulley off the tiller and into the position you‘re considering cuts the mechanical advantage to 1 and does nothing to help except change the direction of pull. Changing the direction of the pull may help but keep a pulley on the tiller for the 2x mechanical advantage.

ron

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Ingersoll224

· #17 · 2 mo ago

Some times good enough is good enough. I generally like your design and would:

1.) Stiffen up connection point
2.) Use larger block pulley
3.) Reverse cable on drum so that it pulls over the top.

If you find that does not work, you may have to add a mast to loop the cable over to have a better lifting angle.

I would make both the wench and mast (if needed) quick release so that they could be removed easily when not in use.

I used 50 amp Anderson quick connects on both the power and control wires so that everything comes apart quickly. (6 ga wire)

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Ambush

· #18 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

2

Hope today is a better day, Knucklebuster.

Giving your set up a bit more thought and this is what I’d recommend, also assuming you’re going to use the winch to lift the sleeve hitch

Basically set up just like the hand winch shown. Then you can use a double or single line.

I’d also recommend the angel iron re-enforcement in the drawing between the two gussets. You could even put the eye on there.

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mrbill47

· #19 · 2 mo ago

knucklebuster283 said:
Ain't no expert so need some advice. I am missing the lift assembly for tiller on my 265. So I'm setting it up using a winch to raise and lower the tiller. Question is, do I have enough of an angle on the cable and should I use a bigger pulley in the snatch block. It is 1.5 inches. View attachment 421191 View attachment 421191 View attachment 421192 View attachment 421191 View attachment 421193
View attachment 421191 View attachment 421192 View attachment 421193

I'd add another loop to the lift to slow down the lift and take up slack when lowered. This thing will lift very fast as set up. It's more a matter of speed than of weight. Incorporating a lift limit switch or at least an indicator light, would help keep from tearing something up if you get distracted with your finger on the momentary action lift switch .. I recommend a momentary on-off-on switch for control.

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Gerry B

· #20 · 2 mo ago

mrbill47 said:
I'd add another loop to the lift to slow down the lift and take up slack when lowered. This thing will lift very fast as set up. It's more a matter of speed than of weight. Incorporating a lift limit switch or at least an indicator light, would help keep from tearing something up if you get distracted with your finger on the momentary action lift switch .. I recommend a momentary on-off-on switch for control.

Have you considered using a 12 VDC linear actuator instead of winch? They are readily available with forces probably adequate, as are strokes and speed. I've used several recently in projects where hydraulics aren't an option.

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